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Author Topic: JK Defrag removes system restore points  (Read 57392 times)
jaska915
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« Reply #45 on: December 03, 2007, 08:15:28 pm »

Yes it does if "making online copies of all changes made to the disk" means running Jkdefrag;)

In normal use 1RP/day is default behaviour.

Running v.3.32b, takes ~15minutes...

edit: or not, nothing to defragment on volume, so it took only 1 minute to complete;) And obviously nothing to put to VSS.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 08:17:22 pm by jaska915 » Logged
jeroen
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« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2007, 09:09:51 pm »

nothing to defragment on volume, so it took only 1 minute to complete;) And obviously nothing to put to VSS.
I am about to release v3.32, but please keep trying v3.32b until you have a definitive answer whether or not it makes the shadow copies grow.
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jaska915
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« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2007, 09:25:44 pm »

Did already, and unfortunately it still grows Sad

Code:
Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 250.547 MB
Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 500 MB
Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 3 GB
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Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 328.648 MB
Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 600 MB
Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 3 GB

Didn't even allow it to run all the way, aborted at beginning of Zone 2.
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jeroen
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« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2007, 09:35:52 pm »

Did already, and unfortunately it still grows Sad
Ok, thanks for testing. Just to make sure, you tested v3.32b, and NOT v3.32, right?
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jaska915
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« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2007, 09:47:52 pm »

22:20:28 JkDefrag v3.32b
22:20:28 Date: 2007/12/03
22:20:28 NtfsDisableLastAccessUpdate is active, ignoring LastAccessTime for SpaceHogs.
22:20:28 Starting JkDefrag for 'C:'
22:20:28 Opening volume '\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}' at mountpoint 'C:'
22:20:28 Input 'C:' does not contain a wildcard, using '*C:*' instead as the mask.
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decomp
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« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2007, 01:26:55 am »

As i understand, Microsoft suggests a NTFS cluster size of 16KB or larger as a possible solution for the Shadow Copy storage area overflowing : http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=312067&sd=RMVP
This looks unpractical for more then one reason: 4KB is the max allowed cluster size for compression; changing the cluster size requires a format or  specialized software.

I noticed Microsoft uses the term "Shadow-copy-aware defragmentation", explaining the Features of the Windows Vista hard disk defragmentation utility here:http://support.microsoft.com/kb/942092/en-us. With the built in defragger you dont loose restore points.

Before Diskeeper 2008, diskeeper had the same problem and triggered VSS to spill over the Shadow Copy storage area. Diskeeper 2008 now has a "Volume Shadow Copy Service (VSS) Compatible Mode".

As i understand it, the challenge for JKDefrag is in translating Shadow-copy-awareness into its code? Probably easier said then done.



 
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jeroen
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« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2007, 01:42:08 am »

As i understand it, the challenge for JKDefrag is in translating Shadow-copy-awareness into its code? Probably easier said then done.
Yes, only that I don't even know where to begin. If have found a series of "VSS_" system calls, and a most tantalizing VSS_SC_DISABLE_DEFRAG enum, but I don't know how to use all that or even if this is the way to the solution.
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RJARRRPCGP
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« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2007, 02:16:31 am »

It looks like Windows' fault, but dunno which component.
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gerdb
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« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2007, 10:23:24 am »

@Jeroen: Maybe you would like to have a look at http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/01/12/XPKernel/

Part of it reads: "The entire shadow copy API is currently only available to ISVs under NDA;..."

Greez
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jimbo
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« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2007, 10:34:24 am »

Just thinking out loud here

It sounds like the underlying problem here is that VSS views any change in a group-of-four 4k clusters as a change to the overall 16k cluster, and that includes changes such as moving 1,2 or 3 of them but not the fourth, which is unavoidable at the start or end of the file, but is also includes moving a group of clusters to a place on the disk that isn't similarly aligned, relative to the start of a 16k cluster.

That would mean that the only way to avoid VSS seeing a 'change' would be to ensure that all file fragment moves were from and to clusters that had the same alignment relative to a VSS 16k cluster. You would still end up with a VSS copy of the first and last cluster of each fragment, but that is 32k per file, which would hopefully be less than the whole fragment size.

However that would still leave the issue of not being able to re-align the fragments to make a file contiguous - you could end up with up to three 4k clusters empty between each fragment of each file that you moved. With light fragmentation and regular defragging, this may be a relatively small issue, since the gaps would be small relative to the files, but on a heavily fragmented disk, this could be problematic, to say the least.

Googling around, it looks like the VSS aware defraggers actually only claim to "slow down" the growth of used shadow storage space, not to eliminate the issue, so it seems likely that they are doing something like this to reduce the amount of VSS 16k clusters that are changed.

Sadly, VSS_SC_DISABLE_DEFRAG looks like a flag that a VSS provider can set on a volume to completely prevent any defragmentation whatsoever.

Microsoft's official fix for all of this, in the VSS update pack, also in 2k3 sp1 makes the vss database larger, and increases the timeouts on requests sent to VSS-aware writers (SQL Server, Exchange, etc.), both of which are aimed at reducing the number of errors logged in the event logs, not at reducing the fact that old checkpoints are removed when you defrag.
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Codemonkey
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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2008, 01:08:20 am »

All defragmenters use Microsoft's API, and until Microsoft makes the necessary changes, you will always run a risk of purging restore points and shadow copies (VSS).

Up to this point I've used Diskkeeper and it stops you from defragmenting a drive with VSS in use (although I don't think it checks for restore points).

As far as shadow copies go.. just backup your system or files you want, and if your system has been running fine for more than a week, don't worry about restore points either. Go ahead and defrag your primary drive.

Personally, I purge restore points and use a backup external drive to save data I want saved. If Windows becomes unstable at some point, it will be about the time Microsoft releases another version or it's time to pave and reinstall Smiley

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fonduekid
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« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2008, 01:00:28 pm »


Hi, new to this forum, but have been around in others for quiet some time, trying to find a solution to this.

Here is the latest on my part > for the complete story < http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=269137 > and for the latest, please see page 3 < http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=269137&page=3 >

Note: I am NOT blaming JkDefrag here - I have been using this and its been a really wonderful tool. Though I think there is some issue somewhere ( as mentioned by the others and the Admin in this thread ).. So please let me know your thoughts. Would be very greatful to anyone for any inputs on this annoying little issue.

**** copy/paste of my recent post there in NBR ****
A Huge Bump >> For a real good reason though.

Why does JkDefrag delete my restore points?
It's not JkDefrag that is deleting your restore points. Restore points use the Shadow Copy service to make snapshots of the disk. JkDefrag does not change files (it only defragments or moves them), but it does change the disk (moving a file is a change to the disk). The Shadow Copy service remembers all these changes in big files in the "C:\System Volume Information\...." folder. When the total amount of diskspace used by shadow copies exceeds a threshold then the oldest snapshot (restore point) is automatically deleted. The threshold can be changed with the "vssadmin" command, see the * vssadmin manpage.


They did say this in the FAQ page of JkDefrag... but I dont know I saw my restore points vanish completely from D:

I just figured out for sure that this system restore issue IS because of JkDefrag (at least in my case!)

Since I did the in-place upgrade / repair of Vista, everything has been fine.. and system restore got back to normal and the scheduled checkpoints and everything were happening well.. Yesterday, I wanted to check out this JkDefrag thing again, and I ran it completely (the default option or the -a 3 one).. Before this, I had both C: and D: enabled for system restore point creation and both had quiet a few restore points in them, including the scheduled checkpoints. But after I finished the JkDefrag, I saw that ALL the restore points in D: were gone! They were all 'deleted'. And so I disabled system restore for both C: and D: and enabled it again and manually created a new restore point, so now both C: and D: had a new restore point. I restart my system, and the scheduled restore point creation (the default one scheduled to run at system startup, with a delay of 30 mins) task did run, but I did not see any scheduled checkpoint creation!!!

Now, as much as I remember and understood, and as one of the Vista Support staff told me, restore points are created only if there is any change in the system or the files for which the system restore point creation happens. So in this case, I can probably understand the absence of a scheduled checkpoint following system startup, since I just made a new restore point manually.

BUT, a scheduled checkpoint is supposed to be done anyways, right? At least before I saw scheduled checkpoints created whenever there was a system startup, and even when I did not make any changes withing those first 30 mins!

I have no idea how this thing works.. But here is the latest story... I am gonna check this again for a few more days and see how it goes. But as of now, it seems to be the JkDefrag thing doing something, and this is what previously I had been doubting as well (please see my previous posts!)

Will be back with any updates. Cheers.

PS., a kind request to people with Vista Ultimate 32bit - If you are using JkDefrag, and if you have enabled system restore point creation (as in the task scheduler), can you please let us know what you are seeing or how is it going for you??? I am asking this so that I can be sure of what I am seeing. For others who have Vista Ult. 32bit, but don't have JkDefrag, but who want to try and check it out, Yes, I would be very happy if you could and get back to us with the details of how its going.

Thanks a lot
**** end of copy/paste ****

Looking forward to hearing from you guys soon Smiley Cheers and thanks.
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jeroen
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« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2008, 08:04:32 pm »

it seems to be the JkDefrag thing doing something
All I can tell you is that JkDefrag is NOT doing anything. Just look in the source code if you like - there is nothing there. Whatever happens is secondary, as a result of what JkDefrag does. And JkDefrag is not the only defragger with disappearing restore points, most defraggers suffer from this. So in my opinion the Shadow Copy service is at fault, and you should be complaining to Microsoft.

By the way, I don't use restore points myself any more. They are not what most people seems to think they are, they are not a backup and should not be used as such.
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fonduekid
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« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2008, 10:45:03 pm »

it seems to be the JkDefrag thing doing something
All I can tell you is that JkDefrag is NOT doing anything. Just look in the source code if you like - there is nothing there. Whatever happens is secondary, as a result of what JkDefrag does. And JkDefrag is not the only defragger with disappearing restore points, most defraggers suffer from this. So in my opinion the Shadow Copy service is at fault, and you should be complaining to Microsoft.

By the way, I don't use restore points myself any more. They are not what most people seems to think they are, they are not a backup and should not be used as such.

Yep yep... I understand and agree with you. I just read through the MS knowledge base article and other places too, and found that the restore points are deleted following defragmentation.. (Sorry forgot to edit my post Smiley ...)

So yeah.. seems like its the shadow copy service and its code I guess... and I read through extensively the JKD FAQ and its more clear now.. Smiley Sorry mate.. I didn't mean to fault JkDefrag as such..

And AGAIN, I would say, this JkDefrag is a great tool (in fact I used it on the two desktop' at work today and it worked like a charm) and I ahve been using it for long... Just didn't realize this issue is not an issue of JkDefrag but WITH MS Shadow Copy Service... And Yes, I have filed a report with MS Smiley Smiley

Thanks anyway and thanks again for this wonderful Defragmenter Smiley Its awesome the way it works and cleans up and optimizes Smiley
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Shodan816
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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2008, 08:25:13 pm »

I wrote in this forum many months ago about JkDefrag removing restore points under Vista. Today I tried it again for the first time since then.  Guess what ?   IT DELETED ALL OF MY RESTORE POINTS AGAIN !

Dell Vostro 1500 Laptop
Vista Business edition.
2gb memory
160bg HD
4 partitions  C, D, E, F
Backups are stored to drive E.

Hope this helps.
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