JK Defrag removes system restore points

[Myriades]

It's impossible unless VISTA's API does, otherwise it's an other heresy of this operating system.
Or maybe i've also forgot something en route 

Regards, Laurent

[Rob C.]

OK. I'll play around some more and keep track of restore points with and without jkdefrag.
Thanks.

[jeroen]

Please! Jkdefrag does NOT do ANYTHING with restore points!!!!! It does not move them, it does not deleted them, it does not compress them. Everything you see happening to the restore points is done by Windows itself, NOT by JkDefrag!!!!!

[jaska915]

Please! Jkdefrag does NOT do ANYTHING with restore points!!!!! It does not move them, it does not deleted them, it does not compress them. Everything you see happening to the restore points is done by Windows itself, NOT by JkDefrag!!!!!

True, Jkdefrag just triggers the action;)

I'm starting to believe that there's some undocumented feature in Windows defragging API or that some feature is ignored in Jkdefrag's code, since Vista's own defragger has newer caused same effect, and rest assured, I've tried;) With Jkdefrag same result is reproduced every single time it's run.

On the other hand, I've not tried other defraggers with Vista, since whole defragmenting fuzz is pretty much needless if one just has enough free space on disk. So why bother fiddling 3rd party defraggers, if defragmenting is even needed Vista's own will do the job just fine.

edit: above is just my personal opinion, your mileage may vary;)

[jeroen]

With Jkdefrag same result is reproduced every single time it's run.

Whereas several other users have no problem whatsoever, myself included. I am beginning to think you are doing something different from what I am doing to test it, or maybe that you have changed a default setting somewhere, or something like that. For example, you have mentioned changing the maximum allocated space, but I have not yet found such a setting.

[Rob C.]

I think I figured out my dilema with system restore. I'm not sure if this answer is for everyone.

I changed Vista's system restore allocated space on the hard drive to 2gb. The default setting is 15% of hard disk space (mine is 320gb  15%=48gb way too much!)

My XP system was perfectly happy with 2gb for restore points. I never let it get past 3 points and everything was cool.

Vista uses much more space for restore points than I was used to in XP. My bad.

I changed allocated space to 4gb now and 3 restore points later, jkdefrag HAS NOT deleted any of them.

You are absolutely right, Jeroen!  Thank you for your patience! Rob c.

By the way, reserved disk space for system restore in Vista can be changed in a command prompt:

              vssadmin resize shadowstorage /on=c: /for=c: /maxsize=4gb

Of course, substitute drive letters and size as needed.

[jaska915]

Just being curious (still), I downloaded latest version (3.31) and ran it just by clicking JkDefrag64.exe executable (so defaut settings, right?). Also changed VSS size to 4Gb, and watched space usage during defragmentation. At start there were 3 RP's.

Restore Points still vanished, but gladly I have some new info. They get wiped during "Zone 2: Fast Optimize.", first status is just after Jkdefrag's start, latest at Zone 3: Fast Optimize." After that used space stays at 0 B.

Code:

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6000]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.

C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.426 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.693 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.539 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.791 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.761 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.986 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.251 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.529 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.395 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.627 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.63 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 2.919 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.286 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.505 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.401 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.603 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.702 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.994 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.334 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.613 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.675 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 3.906 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e69
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 4 GB


C:\Windows\system32>

[Shodan816]

Hello, all;

I am new to this forum, but not new to JKdefrag or to Windows Vista.  I can verify what has been written here - that VISTA RESTORE POINTS are absolutely being wiped out while using JKdefrag.  I have installed it twice and been burned twice. Whether windows is doing it or JKdefrag is doing it, I cannot say.  All I can say for CERTAIN is that running JKdefrag on my Vista laptop leads to deleted restore points.  No other software is doing this.  Only JKdefrag.  I know this is not a lot to go on, but I hope someone can figure out why this is happening on Vista systems and fix it once and for all so we too can enjoy this great defragger.  Thanks for listening...

[jeroen]

Also changed VSS size to 4Gb

I wonder what will happen if you unset the VSS maximum, so that VSS has unlimited space. I have now tried the "vssadmin" command on my Vista computer, but I get the following error:

Code:

D:\www.kessels.com\sources\JkDefrag>vssadmin list shadowstorage
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Error: Unexpected failure: Catastrophic failure

In other words, I cannot see what you are seeing, cannot set a maximum VSS storage, and cannot test or experiment myself.

[jaska915]

Ok, set VSS space to default (15%=10.8GB on my disk), VSS used space was ~800MB at start (only 2 RP's, 1 software install&uninstall yesterday after last "wipe"). When JKDefrag was finished space used by VSS had grown as follows:

Code:

vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{9cb3b91d-6502-11dc-b346-806e6f6e6
63}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 5.474 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 5.684 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 10.8 GB

So totally useless copying of files to Shadow Storage. Allocating unlimited space to VSS would be totally idiotic, as using JKdefrag would just fill out entire disk and cause even more problems. And keep in mind that this run was "easy" since disk was last defragmended yesterday evening, so not too much moving files around.

edit: and of course Restore Points were not deleted this time. Next run they would be though, since that 10.8GB's would most likely become filled with rubbish.

edit2: and "naturally" when I set VSS size back to, lets say 3GB, after defrag, RP's will be deleted, not those rubbish files;) Just tested.

Code:

Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 0 B
Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 3 GB

[jeroen]

Restore Points were not deleted this time.

Excellent. This proves that it is not JkDefrag that is deleting the restore points, but Windows itself. A simple workaround is to increase the maximum space setting of the shadow copy service. The problem is a deficiency in the shadow copy service, it is build in such a way that defragmentation and optimization causes it to use more space, and when it reaches the maximum space it deletes old restore points. It's still not clear how the build-in Vista defragger manages to prevent this problem, though.

[jaska915]

Well, not so excellent really, since RP's still get deleted even with VSS is at default settings if (for example) Jkdefrag is run ~twice. Depending of used space, amount of files being defragged, existing Restore Points etc.

And 15% of disk space only for System Restore is just madness, especially since most of it is to allow Jkdefrag to run ONCE without glitches. With second run situation is same as it would be with just few GB's for VSS.

edit: of course one could allocate whole disk to VSS, then Jkdefrag could MAYBE run for few times and still one could use ~week old RP to restore system state;) Not really a very smart move, is it?

[jeroen]

Well, not so excellent really

It's excellent that we now know what is causing this problem.

Depending of used space, amount of files being defragged, existing Restore Points etc.

Exactly. So it's not right to say that JkDefrag can only be run ONCE. It depends.

By the way, I wonder what happens if there is simply a lot of activity on the computer. I think in that case the restore points can get deleted automatically as well? If that is true then restore points should NOT be thought of or used as a backup.

[jaska915]

Well, Vista makes 1 Restore Point a day, and every time when driver/program is installed/uninstalled. However, space used by these is quite far away from that what a single run of Jkdefrag fills to VSS. For example, I have 3GB's for VSS and it's able to hold 3 or 4 daily RP's. And as previous post showed, single run of Jkdefrag puts nearly 5GB of useless garbage to VSS space, and if volume is heavily fragmented and more filled it seems it could easily be double that. For me couple days is quite enough for System Restore.

System Restore isn't really a substitute for backup, never has been. Hopefully nobody even thinks it could be;)

edit: and yes, VSS deletes RP's starting from oldest when available VS space is too low.

[jeroen]

Well, Vista makes 1 Restore Point a day, and every time when driver/program is installed/uninstalled.

Oh? It looks like the Shadow Copy service is making online copies of all changes made to the disk. Not just once per day. Or at least it is making copies of everything it thinks JkDefrag is doing.

Could you try something for me? Please download the attached version v3.32b and test if the shadow copies still grow with this version.